Change Your Brain with Omega-3s
OmegaMatters: Episode 51
Hosts: Drs. Bill Harris & Kristina Harris Jackson
Guest: Dr. Daniel Amen
About this episode: In this episode, Drs. Harris and Jackson talk to Dr. Daniel Amen. The Washington Post called Dr. Daniel Amen the most popular psychiatrist in America. He is a former infantry medic and board-certified child and adult psychiatrist, who trained at the Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, DC. He is also the founder and CEO of Amen Clinics, with 11 locations nationwide and home to the world’s largest brain imaging database for psychiatry with nearly 300,000 SPECT scans on patients from 155 countries. For more information on OmegaMatters, visit https://omegaquant.com/omegamatters-broadcasts/.
SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Kristina Harris Jackson: Welcome to OmegaMatters, where we talk all things omegas! I’m Kristina Jackson, this is my dad, Bill Harris, and today we have a wonderful guest today, Dr. Daniel Amen! The Washington Post called Dr. Daniel Amen the most popular psychiatrist in America. He is a former infantry medic and board-certified child and adult psychiatrist, who trained at the Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, DC. He is the CEO and founder of Amen Clinics, with 11 locations nationwide and home to the world’s largest brain imaging database for psychiatry with nearly 300,000 SPECT scans on patients from 155 countries.
Dr. Amen is a 12-time New York Times bestselling author, including the books Change Your Brain, Change Your Life, Healing ADD, Memory Rescue, Raising Mentally Strong Kids, and The End of Mental Illness. In addition, Dr. Amen has published over 90 scientific articles and has led groundbreaking brain imaging research on active and former NFL players, childhood trauma, negativity bias, reversing brain aging, obesity and the brain, and predicting treatment responses. His PBS specials and top-ranked podcast have inspired millions. With over 10 million social media followers, his mission is bold: to end mental illness by creating a revolution in brain health.
Dr. Amen is formally working with the White House Faith Office on creating a national brain health revolution. These are all important, timely topics to discuss, and we are so grateful to have you on OmegaMatters today, Dr. Amen!
Dr. Kristina Harris Jackson: Dr. Amen, we are so happy to have you here. So you two have known each other for some time. How did you meet?
Dr. Bill Harris: How did we meet? I think through Brainspan, maybe. Through-
Dr. Daniel Amen: Brainspan.
Dr. Bill Harris: Dan Johnston.
Dr. Daniel Amen: Yeah.
Dr. Bill Harris:Might have been.
Dr. Daniel Amen: And also perhaps Paris Kidd. Do you know Paris?
Dr. Bill Harris: I do. At least the name rings a bell. It’s been a while.
Dr. Daniel Amen: Yeah. I love him so much. He’s sort of been our PhD formulator for a long time and he was a huge fan of the Omega-3 Index.
Dr. Bill Harris:Okay. Okay.
Dr. Kristina Harris Jackson: Well, then we like Paris, too.
Dr. Daniel Amen: Yeah, that was the basis of our 2017 paper. We’ll talk about that.
Dr. Kristina Harris Jackson: Yeah. So let’s just get into a little bit of your story, Dr. Amen, of how you became interested in the brain and mental health. And it’s a huge focus today. But when you started, it seemed like you were a little ahead of the curve and maybe still ahead of the curve. So can you tell us a little bit about how you got interested in this area and how what you do is a little bit different?
Dr. Daniel Amen: Yeah, so different. 1972, I turn 18. There’s a draft in the United States. I have a low draft number. I became an infantry medic where my love of medicine was. But about a year into it, I realized I didn’t like being shot at. So I got retrained as an x-ray technician and developed a passion for medical imaging. As our professors used to say, “How do you know unless you look?”
And then I get out of the army, go to medical school. When I’m a second year medical student, someone I love tries to kill herself. And I take her to a wonderful psychiatrist. And I came to realize if he helps her, which he did, it wouldn’t just help her, that it would help me. It would help her children and even her grandchildren as they would be shaped by someone who was happier and more stable.
So 46 years ago, I fell in love with psychiatry and I’ve loved it every day since. But I fell in love with the only medical specialty that never looks at the organ it treats. And I knew it was wrong and I agitated for change.
And when I was growing up, I have a complicated relationship with my father. He had two favorite words. Bullshit and no. Everything was bullshit or no.
Dr. Bill Harris: That’s three, but that’s okay. Got it.
Dr. Daniel Amen: When my professor said, “Oh no, that’s the future.” I’m like, “Bullshit. We should do it now.” And we already had technology. And so in 1991, I’m a psychiatrist for about a decade and I went to a lecture on brain SPECT imaging. SPECT is a nuclear medicine study that looks at blood flow and activity. It looks at how the brain works. And 49% of the tracer is taken up in the mitochondria in the brain. So you’re really getting a picture of blood flow and energy metabolism.
And I fell in love with imaging and now we’ve done almost 300,000 scans on patients from 155 countries. And the big lesson was most psychiatric illnesses are not mental health issues. They are brain health issues. Get your brain healthy and your mind will follow. Making diagnoses based on symptom clusters with no biological data, that’s insane. I’m a psychiatrist, I know how to diagnose insanity.
And then when you look, you realize if your brain’s not healthy, well, you’re more likely to be depressed. If your brain’s not healthy, you’re more likely to have marital problems. If your brain’s not healthy, you’re more likely to have financial problems because your decision maker, brain, is not right.
And literally changed everything I did. I realized some of the drugs I was prescribing like benzos, opiates were not healthy for the brain. And that led me to what all medical students are taught, first do no harm, use the least toxic, most effective treatments. And back in 1991, there was lots of excitement about omega-3 fatty acids. And so I think everybody should probably take them.
I did a study, used, and you don’t know about this study at least, or maybe you do, but before we published our study, I got you to give me a lot of omega-3 index studies. And we looked at 50 consecutive patients who came to Amen Clinics. 49 of them had suboptimal levels.
Dr. Bill Harris: No surprise. Yeah.
Dr. Daniel Amen: Index. And I’m like, look, if more than 90% of the population is deficient in omega-3 fatty acids, that could be one of the main underlying causes of the mental health epidemic we find ourself in. That’s the short story.
Dr. Bill Harris: Yeah. Yeah. Just a quick little rabbit trail there. Just somehow it piqued my interest. Mind and brain. What’s the difference?
Dr. Daniel Amen: It’s a great question. And I mostly think that your brain, the physical functioning of your brain creates your mind because if you damage it, well, all of a sudden you have violent thoughts. All of a sudden, you’re sad, you’re mad. But there’s a lot of consciousness research that suggests the brain really is a receiver, that it receives consciousness from outside itself.
Dr. Bill Harris: Okay. This is getting deep. You’re getting deep now. Yeah.
Dr. Daniel Amen: And given what I know about channeling and near death experiences, and I did a prayer study on speaking in tongues, I think if the brain is damaged, it is not going to channel. It’s going to channel illness.
Dr. Bill Harris: Wow.
Dr. Daniel Amen: But by and large, if you want a healthy mind, I think of it sort of like hardware and software. If you want a healthy mind, you need to have a healthy brain. You can’t run great software on a platform that has hardware problems.
Dr. Bill Harris: Yeah. Great analogy. Great picture.
Dr. Kristina Harris Jackson: Yeah. And it is surprisingly simple and yet it is still revolutionary in this area for brain imaging to be used in the frontline of diagnoses in your field.
Dr. Daniel Amen: Yeah. I was on Zoom with Lithuania on Saturday and they’re like, “Why are you going to bring a clinic to Lithuania?” And I’m like, “Why are we making diagnoses like they did in 1840 when Lincoln was depressed?” I’m working on this White House initiative. Don’t hate me.
Dr. Bill Harris: Don’t get me started, right?
Dr. Daniel Amen: Say that upfront. Don’t hate me.
Dr. Bill Harris: No, no. It’s great. I’m glad you’re there.
Dr. Daniel Amen: Absolutely. They’re sacred human rights. And so if President Biden would’ve said, “Hey, Daniel, will you help?” I’m like, “Sure. Absolutely.” But if you go to the Lincoln bedroom, Lincoln suffered with severe depression. He was suicidal twice in his life. And in the winter of 1840, he went to his doctor in Springfield, Illinois, Anson Henry. And how did Dr. Henry diagnose Lincoln with melancholia or what we’d now call major depression? He talked to him. He looked at him, looked for symptom clusters, then diagnosed and treated him.
That’s exactly what’s happening in the end of 2025. That’s ridiculous. We need to look because, Bill, I don’t know what you think about this, but I don’t think depression should be a diagnosis. I think depression is like chest pain. Nobody gets a diagnosis.
Dr. Bill Harris: Oh, it’s a symptom.
Dr. Daniel Amen: Because it doesn’t tell you what’s causing it and it doesn’t tell you what to do for it. Depression can be from low activity in the brain or high activity in the brain. It can be from head trauma. It can be from toxic exposure. It can be post COVID, which causes this dramatic inflammation in the limbic structures of the brain. I think we’re just not thinking about this right.
Dr. Bill Harris: Wow. Wow. So when you mentioned images, and I think about AI and its future in medicine, and people talk about it being really good in image interpretation. How are you thinking about that?
Dr. Daniel Amen: We read our scans with AI. We have used, AI can read scans like my eyes can. Now, I’m better at it. But it’s pretty good. Yeah. I’m excited and worried about it at the same time because it’s like you’ve been going to the gym and you’ve been lifting with 30 pound weights and now you’re going to the gym and you’re lifting with one pound weights. So what is it going to do to the human brain?
So I think the people who are going to get hurt the most are the young because their brains are not fully developed. And I think you need effort to develop the pathways properly.
Dr. Bill Harris: Well, we could spend a lot of time on that. I don’t want to get too far down that road, but…
Dr. Kristina Harris Jackson: It’s a real mixed bag. So what is your basic understanding of the mechanisms behind these different brain pathologies and how does that connect to how you treat or prevent? And then how does that bring omega-3s into it? How does that all come together?
Dr. Daniel Amen: So I have a new book out I’m very excited about. Change Your Brain, Change Your Pain. It’s going to come out a week from tomorrow. And in it, I talk about the acronym BRIGHT MINDS. If you want to keep your brain healthy or rescue it, you have to prevent or treat the 11 major risk factors that steal your mind. And BRIGHT MINDS. So B is for blood flow. R is retirement and aging. I is inflammation, where I think the omega-3s, I mean, they work for virtually all of them, but really help lower inflammation. G is genetics, H is head trauma, T is toxins, M, mental health, like adverse childhood experiences, your negativity bias. That would be an interesting study. I just published a study on 2,000 people with negativity bias. I bet they’d have low omega-3s.
Dr. Bill Harris: What is negativity bias?
Dr. Daniel Amen: Well, does your brain default to what’s wrong or to what’s right? And if you’re biased toward negativity, you have lower function, especially in the prefrontal cortex. And what’s interesting, we also published a study on happiness, low prefrontal cortex activity. And we have a new one coming out on 7,200 patients on hope, low hope, low prefrontal activity. So don’t let your child hit a soccer ball with their forehead or play tackle football.
Second I is immunity and infections. I have many post COVID scans. In fact, on Thursday, on Thanksgiving, I’m going to be on the Kardashians. And why? Because Kendall Jenner came to see me for post COVID anxiety and her emotional brain was just on fire. And omega-3s and curcumins and quercetin are part of the plan to calm things down.
Then Neuro hormones is the N. D is diabesity. S is sleep. And so Bill, I’m sure you can see how omega-3s are involved in many of these 11 risk factors.
Dr. Bill Harris: Oh yeah, right.
Dr. Daniel Amen: And Alzheimer’s disease. And people go, “Oh, you can’t do that. ” It’s like Lancet published a study last year that said 50% of Alzheimer’s disease is preventable and decreasing your BRIGHT MINDS risk factors is the way to do it.
Dr. Kristina Harris Jackson: Makes a lot of sense.
Dr. Bill Harris: On your scans, can you see, diagnose Alzheimer’s?
Dr. Daniel Amen: Yes, early. A decade or two before you have any symptoms. And Alzheimer’s, if you put your thumbs in your ears and your hands on your head, well, that’s a pattern for Alzheimer’s disease that has been described since the late 1980s. Bilateral decrease parietal lobe activity and bilateral decreased medial temporal lobe activity.
So an area of the brain called the hippocampus dies early and your parietal lobe, top back part of your brain. And if we’re blessed to live to 85, we have a one in two chance of having lost our [inaudible 00:15:10]. I’m not okay with it.
And so I think all of us should be on an Alzheimer’s prevention program our whole lives. And if you have one of the Apolipoprotein E4 genes, you better be serious early.
I just did a podcast with Tim Tebow and we scanned him and he had the double E4 gene.
Dr. Bill Harris: Oh, really?
Dr. Daniel Amen: I’m trying to impress on him double E4s plus football, you need to be on an Alzheimer’s prevention program your whole life.
Dr. Bill Harris: Oh, good Lord. Yes. Right.
Dr. Kristina Harris Jackson: Absolutely.
Dr. Bill Harris: Does he need convincing?
Dr. Daniel Amen: He was struggling with it a little bit because he’s got such a mission from God. It’s like, “No, I have to do all these things.” And I’m like, “You can do them longer if you take better care of yourself.”
Dr. Bill Harris: Absolutely. Absolutely. Wow.
Dr. Kristina Harris Jackson: So you said the patterning for Alzheimer’s is a certain way. And I also looked on your website and you were also talking about ADD and ADHD and other childhood, well, I guess that’s lifelong, but not just an aging brain, but all different kinds of brain differences. And do they all have those specific kind of patternings that you now know about and that’s how you diagnose?
Dr. Daniel Amen: Well, each of them have multiple subtypes. Like I said, depression shouldn’t be a diagnosis by itself. It should be depression with high frontal lobe activity, depression with low frontal lobe activity, depression as a result of head trauma or toxic exposure. I wrote a book called Healing ADD, See and Heal the Seven Different Types. And I think autism, it has sort of a classic pattern, especially a smaller cerebellar vermis and they’re hyperfrontal. Not every autistic person is like that, which is why we should scan people.
The assumption that all depressed people are the same, so we should start everybody on an SSRI is ludicrous, especially now there’s new research suggesting SSRIs can increase the risk of dementia. And given that 25% of the US population is on psychiatric drugs, we should all be concerned.
Dr. Kristina Harris Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. With the omega-3s, I usually think of the two main things that they’re doing in my mind are making blood flow easier through a number of different ways and tamping down inflammation a little bit. It also has the lipid piece, but those are, to me, what I see as the two real core functions of omega-3s when you get people increased.
Have you seen anyone who’s increased the omega-3 index or taken fish oil and seen brain differences or seen anything in those veins?
Dr. Daniel Amen: Well, we did a study and we showed it enhanced blood flow, especially in the hippocampus, which is the major memory center in the brain and it’s so stinking interesting. One question I have for you guys is the research that I’ve seen said that EPA, so people usually think of brain and DHA, but that EPA was better for depression and ADHD. And I’m like, “Well, why would that be? ” And another mechanism, I think with omega-3, since they make up such a large part of neuro cell membranes is communication in the brain, that it increases cellular fluidity, which means it’s going to increase communication.
Dr. Bill Harris: But you’re right. If you look at the meta-analyses about treatments of depression, depressive symptoms, typically the products that have higher EPA than DHA do better, which is counterintuitive, but maybe the EPA is actually playing a role, not quite in the brain, but in the microcirculation of the brain, in the blood. Anti-inflammatory, even though EPA doesn’t get into the meat of the brain, the tissue, like DHA does, I think it could still have… It’s obviously got to have some effect because it’s showing up here, but maybe it’s from outside, maybe the brain is… I don’t know.
Dr. Daniel Amen: There’s so much intercommunication between your heart and your brain, between your gut and your brain. It’s clear as day to me that if you want a healthy brain, you have to have a healthy body.
Dr. Bill Harris: Well, and to your point, the omega-3s do have some impact, not studied terribly well on microbiome and could be that way. There may be some EPA effect in the gut that is affecting this axis that… It’s complicated. It’s all dark in there too. It’s really complicated. You can’t see anything except for what you look at with scans.
Dr. Kristina Harris Jackson: Well, it’s also similar to exercise. It’s one of the most important things we can do. And one of the big things exercise is doing is improving our blood flow and that’s just like, it’s not something we think about.
Dr. Daniel Amen: And it has antidepressant effects. Head to head against Zoloft, exercise, walking like you’re late 45 minutes, four times a week was found to be equally…
Dr. Bill Harris: Walking like you’re late.
Dr. Kristina Harris Jackson: Walking like you’re late. That’s a good speed.
Dr. Daniel Amen: I do something called Japanese walking, which you walk normal for three minutes. I did it this morning, fast for three minutes, normal for three minutes, fast for three minutes. It’s 30 minutes, and it has lots of health benefits without wearing out your joints.
Dr. Kristina Harris Jackson: Yes, that’s the balance for longevity and exercise is getting it without burning your joints out.
Dr. Bill Harris: Well, hopefully omega-3 can help keep the joints going too.
Dr. Kristina Harris Jackson: That’s true. So I’d love to talk a little bit more about your book coming out. And I wanted to know, you’ve covered a lot of topics in your writing. How did pain become the next topic you wanted to focus on?
Dr. Daniel Amen: I was tired of being in pain.
Dr. Kristina Harris Jackson: Oh, personally? Yeah.
Dr. Daniel Amen: It was my back. It was my neck. It was my hip. I’d always go get an MRI. They’d always be abnormal. Surgery’s always recommended. I’ve done almost 300,000 scans. General anesthesia is a risk factor for Alzheimer’s disease. I don’t like brains after general anesthesia. And so I’m like, no.
And so I got super curious about it. And then I read a study that I’m 71, 80% of people my age have abnormal back MRIs who have no pain at all. 70% of people my age have abnormal neck spine MRIs who have no pain at all. And then I’m like, all right, it’s something else.
And I love this book so much because since I started it, I have no pain. And when I do get pain, I don’t get freaked out by it. And I talk about the doom loop, which is you have pain for any reason. So it was my hip. I played three hours of table tennis the year my daughter graduated from high school. I had hip pain for two years after that.
And what I came to realize was my anxiety about the pain was my anxiety about my abnormal hip MRI. And it was my repressed emotion that were driving the doom loop, which is the star of this book. How do you get into the doom loop and how do you get out of the doom loop? And I also wondered why does Cymbalta, it’s a really good antidepressant, why is it also FDA-approved for chronic pain? Why do omega-3 fatty acids work for pain and depression? Why does Sam E, the supplement that I like a lot that I use a lot for mood disorders, why does it also decrease arthritic pain? Because they work on the same circuits.
And so I write about the three pain circuits, the feeling pathway that tells you where pain is, the suffering pathway that sort of smears it with negativity and fear and the calming pathway, your prefrontal cortex. So if you have low happiness, low hope, and more negativity, you actually can’t turn off the pain.
So I talk about the pain circuits and how to optimize them. And I teach people how to express their emotions because repressed emotions is a major cause of pain. And of course, you have to get your brain healthy. You’re going to be out of pain and be curious about the pain, not furious. And so always be in a learning mode.
I did a podcast. We have a podcast called Change Your Brain Every Day. And recently we had on Julius Randall, who’s the three time NBA all star superstar forward for the Minnesota Timberwolves. And it’s like no more failure. Every day he wins or he learns. And it’s just the right mindset for us to have when it comes to pain.
Dr. Kristina Harris Jackson: This might be too much of a tangent, but it kind of reminds me of when I was pregnant. And I mostly study pregnancy, so everything kind of comes back to that. But I took a hypno-birthing class before, and it was kind of mostly about how do you calm and quiet your brain during labor, an intense time, so that you’re able to calm your whole body and let your body do what it needs to do.
And it was incredibly effective for me. And it was so cool to like, just the process was like, you have to release the fear and you have to release the tension and anxiety to go into labor and to have consistent contractions. And it was just such an interesting training because it’s just like a prenatal birth class, but it’s more focused on the mental side of it to be able to go there.
Dr. Daniel Amen: Hypnosis is actually physical. Hypnosis balances your brain in a very interesting, cool way. So before I did imaging, when I was a medical student, I took a month elective in hypnosis and I hypnotized everybody. Early, practice. And my first three published papers were on hypnosis. A Parkinsonian tremor went away in a trance, which I thought was so interesting.
Dr. Bill Harris: And came back out of it?
Dr. Daniel Amen: Came back out. Then his tremor came back when he was out of it. But we published it because usually Parkinsonian tremors go away with sleep. But when I put him in a trance, and I actually did it so he’d go to sleep, I noticed his tremor went away before I put him to sleep.
And the next morning in grand rounds, I’m an intern, my attending neurologist, when I told him about it, rolled his eyes at me and I could just hear him thinking, “Why do I have to deal with these psychiatric interns?”
And he got mad and I’m like, “No, watch.” And in front of all of my fellow interns and residents, I hypnotized him and his tremor went away fully. I mean, he’s hypnotized, but fully away and the attending got curious. And we did EEGs on him that afternoon and we published that paper. It was really interesting, but it’s very powerful. And you wonder if hypnotizability goes up when your omega-3 index goes up.
Dr. Bill Harris: Oh, good Lord. The questions you’re raising here.
Dr. Kristina Harris Jackson: Here we go.
Dr. Bill Harris: I mean, the studies we can do here. Oh my God. This is great.
Dr. Kristina Harris Jackson: We could talk about the study that you guys did do. Now it’s getting to be over five years ago, closer to 10. So we could quickly talk about that first study. It’s called the quantitative erythrocyte omega-3 EPA plus DHA levels are related to higher regional cerebral blood flow on brain SPECT. And this was published in 2017 in the Journal of Alzheimer’s Diseases. Tell us how this study came to be and what you found.
Dr. Bill Harris: Must have given you a bunch of kits, right? And then we did it.
Dr. Daniel Amen: You gave us a bunch of kits, first we looked at 50 consecutive people and we saw this very low omega-3 index in psychiatric patients. And so then we did a random sample of 166 patients. We measured their omega-3 index and we did SPECT scans. We do that on all of our patients. We looked at 128 regions.
And what we found was a statistically significant relationship, higher omega-3 levels, higher cerebral blood flow in some very important regions of the brain, the parahippocampal gyrus, the precuneus, both of them incredibly important to cognition. And also in the cerebellar vermis, which is right in the middle of the cerebellar hemispheres, but that’s the area that’s low in autism, is really-
Dr. Bill Harris: Low blood flow?
Dr. Daniel Amen: Low blood flow. And they’re smaller. There’s some developmental problems. A higher omega-3 index was positively correlated with blood flow, but also cognitive and emotional functioning, which we thought was really interesting.
Dr. Bill Harris: Oh man. If you could do that again with about a 10x sample size, it would be really cool.
Dr. Daniel Amen: No, I think that would be interesting. If we did it, whatever you’re willing to give us, we’ll give it to everybody.
Dr. Bill Harris: We’ll get back to you on that, Dan.
Dr. Daniel Amen: The reason that test is so important is I think everybody should know their number. I always talk about know your important numbers. It’s a business principle. You can’t change what you don’t measure, which is why I love imaging. But I think everybody should know C-reactive protein. Everybody should know their vitamin D level and everybody should know their omega-3 index because if it’s low, well, it’s not hard to fix either by eating more omega-3 rich foods or taking an omega-3 rich supplement, and then that decreases death.
Dr. Bill Harris: Let’s start with that. Right.
Dr. Daniel Amen: And how exciting is that? It gives people hope. Because what is hope? Ultimately, it’s tomorrow can be better and I have a role in it.
And the omega-3 index goes, “Okay, here’s where I am now.” And if it’s awesome, mine was awesome, very happy about that, if it’s awesome, you celebrate. If it’s not, you rehabilitate.
Dr. Bill Harris: Great. I love that. I love that. And I feel the same way the way you felt about, nobody looked at the actual organ of interest for psychiatrists, psychiatry, neurologists. Nobody looked at omega-3 levels because they’re so easy to get at and they’re so actionable upon. But they’re not as part of a panel that you’d get every year, which has been my hope from the beginning, that it’s just as common as a cholesterol test. And probably more important than a cholesterol test, but still working on getting it in the flow.
Dr. Daniel Amen: Well, however I can be helpful to get that message out. I certainly write about it in all of my books.
Dr. Bill Harris: Oh, you’ve been great.
Dr. Daniel Amen: We should have you on our podcast. I think that would be another.
Dr. Bill Harris: I would love to do it.
Dr. Daniel Amen: Yeah.
Dr. Bill Harris: Figure a time. Well, we probably better wrap this up.
Dr. Kristina Harris Jackson: Yeah.
Dr. Bill Harris: The time is moving on. Thank you so much for the time you’ve given us, Dan. It’s great to see you again. And the perspective is wonderful. Got a lot of little quips now I can use. Bright mind, right? That’s a good one. What was the one in the pain book? What was your…
Dr. Daniel Amen: The doom loop.
Dr. Bill Harris: The doom loop. So why wasn’t that the title?
Dr. Daniel Amen: Because Change Your Brain, Change Your Life, sold 1.2 million copies and was in, translated into 40 languages. We think that’s a good title. Keep it going.
Dr. Kristina Harris Jackson: Stick with what works.
Dr. Bill Harris: Or Escaping the Doom Loop might have been a good title.
Dr. Daniel Amen: That’s good, that’s good.
Dr. Kristina Harris Jackson: Maybe a subtitle. But it’s too late. It’s going to be great.
Dr. Bill Harris: It’s going to be great. Well, hope this book is, it comes out next week?
Dr. Kristina Harris Jackson: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Bill Harris: What’s the book again? You want to show the picture of that book again? It’s over there. Change Your Brain, Change Your Pain. Perfect.
Dr. Kristina Harris Jackson: Looks great.
Dr. Bill Harris: Perfect. Love it.
Dr. Kristina Harris Jackson: Thank you so much for talking with us today and best of luck with the book and happy holidays.
Dr. Daniel Amen: Yeah. Right. Same to you guys.
Dr. Kristina Harris Jackson: Here we are.
Dr. Daniel Amen: Thank you.
Dr. Kristina Harris Jackson: All right.